Transcript:

00:00:05 Michele Goodwin:

Welcome to On the Issues with Michele Goodwin at Ms. Magazine. As you know, we’re a show that reports, rebels, and we tell it just like it is. And typically it’s our 15 Minutes of Feminism platform where we just dive right in and we say we count the minutes in our own feminist terms. Well, in this episode we are diving right in our On the Issues platform and I’m joined by Becky Pringle, who is the President of the National Education Association, and we decided to bring you this prerecorded interview at this time of the year as a moment of reflection on what has happened in the United States. 

There are children who are afraid to go to school, parents afraid to drop their kids off, parents standing in for other parents saying we will be bold, we will protect you, we will only engage in integrity and dignity against forces that would otherwise snatch children out of the arms of their parents. Or arrest parents right in front of their kid’s school on the pretense that they simply don’t belong. What we’ve seen over the course of this year has been shocking. It’s been shameful. Frankly, it’s downright embarrassing. 

There are people who are naturalized citizens, there are people who are lawful residents who are now in fear in the United States that they may be detained and deported. And they’re concerned, not only for themselves, but also their children. Well, in this episode, where we’re looking at the state of America in K through 12 education, it’s certainly on our minds and it’s on the minds of educators. So, we want you to sit back and take a listen to this special prerecorded interview that I did with Becky Pringle. 

It is such a pleasure to be with you and to spend time with you Becky Pringle and I want to start off with you in the news. And recently you’ve been in stories, We’re Not Done Yet: NEA President Becky Pringle on the Union’s Next Steps, in Education Week. Trump’s Tax Bill Will Starve Public Schools, Time Magazine where you were quoted. ABC News, Teachers all over this country are losing jobs right now. Those are just recently spaces in which you’ve been lending your voice. And so, I want to start off with the following question, and I’m so grateful that you’re here with me, which is how are the current policies coming out of the White House making this year’s back-to-school season more expensive and perhaps even heartbreaking than in previous years?

00:03:12 Becky Pringle:

Well, always it’s good to be in the company of thoughtful and inspiring brilliant women, so it’s always good to be in your company Michele. I will tell you something I think you already know, that I taught eighth graders the wonders of science for 31 years before becoming a leader in the NEA. And so that’s a long time and you know things get wired in a way, so it’s, this time of year, still to this day, I have the same kind of responses. It’s exciting. I have two grandchildren now, so I’m you know making sure they have what they need to start school and talking to them about they’re excited to be back with their friends, and meet their new teacher, and all of that. 

So, it’s just it’s always an exciting time of year and full of hope and promise. And for me, you know, I spent my summers taking additional courses, preparing new science labs, I was always so excited to get back and see how it would go. And I still feel that, I still feel it, and I hear it from students, and parents, and educators all over this country. But I will also say that as I have visited, and will do some additional visits next week with educators, and parents, and the students themselves there is some, there’s a lot of fear, just a lot of fear. We know that educators have forever they’ve taken money out of their own pockets. That’s, I did it, my dad did it, you know, every educator I know they did it, but we can’t stand in these kind of gaps. 

You know we’ve spent records, we’re predicting that teachers will spend a record of money, a record amount of money out of their pockets exceeding 500 dollars just at the beginning of the year trying to buy backpacks and get enough snacks in their rooms. But Michele, we can’t stand in these kinds of gaps that are being created by the Trump Administration and the cuts that have been made already, and the cuts that are yet to be imp, yet to impact as our students go back to school. So, naturally teachers are worried that their kids are going to be hungry, more hungry, and not just the kids it’s the families. You saw that in COVID, right, you know.

00:06:00 Michele Goodwin:

Yeah, that’s right.

00:06:01 Becky Pringle:

We weren’t just feeding the kids. 

00:06:02 Michele Goodwin:

That’s right. I mean, people, young people, families, they rely on what it is that young people receive from schools whether it is the breakfast programs, the lunch programs, you mentioned snacks. There are children in our country of all shades, religions, et cetera, for whom that is the key meal of the day what they get at school. That snack that is the snack that they get. And I’m wondering, there’s so much for us to talk about, let me start off with asking how are you feeling personally in terms of the weight of all of this? You are an inspiration, people look up to you for guidance, and I’m wondering, first, how you are feeling this year in going back to school?

00:07:00 Becky Pringle:

Wow, Michele, that’s a question many of us struggle to answer from day to day with every 15 minutes  

00:07:04 Michele Goodwin:

I know.

00:07:11 Becky Pringle:

By the time we finish our conversation something else will have happened. There will be some other atrocity, some other cruelty that has happened to our kids, some other ICE raid that threatens our families and puts fear into parents every 15 minutes. And so, for me, what I intentionally do is make sure that I center myself in my why, my purpose for being on this earth, and for me I get the incredible opportunity to be reminded of that every day. I get to see those educators, in spite of all that they’re facing, all the challenges, all they’re being asked to do more of with less, with less, with so much less. 

I get to see them standing up every day. And they’re not only teaching and driving, nurturing the kids within the confines of their own classrooms or hallways or schools, but you know after school and on weekends. They’re standing up and bringing their voices together in this powerful collective way. They’re telling their stories about real kids and making phone calls to elected leaders. They’re planning for the elections to come whether it’s school board elections or this all important midterm election in 2026. They’re doing all of that too. Building relationships within communities because they know they can’t, they can’t do it by themselves. 

00:08:53 Michele Goodwin:

So, you know, as you’re mentioning that they are holding things up and you’re saying that you look back at them and you’re feeling inspired because after all they’re going and smiling, encouraging the kids, and so much. So, I’m wondering then how are they? Do you have any insights on how our teachers are doing, how they’re feeling? I mean, in the backdrop of all of this we hear about the dismantling of the Department of Education and what that represents. We hear about the rolling back of funds for public education. The fact that it’s even a question mark whether we should be supporting pre-K kindergarten. So, how do they hold it together? I mean, it’s amazing.

00:09:39 Becky Pringle:

It really is amazing and I do ask that question, and what they tell me because they must. That really it boils down to that, but you know they also know they’re not doing it by themselves, that’s why they belong to the union. They know they can reach out to the union when they’re fighting against those book bans. When they’re lifting up their voice and standing up, they know that they have their union to fight with them and to protect them, but not only that, they know that their union, the NEA, filed suit to stop the edict from the Department of Education demanding that every school district, every school district cleanse, whatever that means, cleanse everything of diversity, equity, and inclusion, from hiring, to curriculum, all of it. 

Now, nobody knows what means, of course, which is why we, we want to say in that particular lawsuit, but then just the requirement to sign to certify. It felt like when we read it, it felt like sign in blood that you have done these things in 10 days, in 10 days. So, I want you to think, and I know that people who haven’t worked in a school or school district maybe wouldn’t understand this, but they think they would, 10 days. That meant they had to stop everything they were doing and try to comply with this.

00:11:12 Michele Goodwin:

It’s a lot.

00:11:13 Becky Pringle:

It’s a lot, so what does that mean? They’re not doing what they needed to do for their kids. They’re putting that weight and that burden on teachers, so teachers have to stop what they’re doing whether it’s literally instructing the kids, or reaching out to parents, or planning their lessons, everybody had to stop and focus on this ridiculous nebulous edict. And so our teachers and all of our educators were proud that the NEA stood up in that moment and they didn’t, we didn’t do it by ourselves. We joined along with the ACLU, the ACLU joined with us and we were able to beat that back. So, we won’t stop the litigation that we’re doing so they, educators don’t feel like they’re alone. 

00:11:58 Michele Goodwin:

Right.

00:11:59 Becky Pringle:

Also, and it’s, this is so inspiring for me and for each other, in this moment they’re standing up, all over this country they’re standing up. In Los Angeles, you see them they’re protecting their kids from ICE raids. They’re forming rings around them. They’re escorting them to and from school. They’re picking them up if their parents had just been picked up and disappeared. And so they see that, and they know and understand the power they have, and we are working, that’s our focus of our work, Michele, is making sure they have the tools, the materials, the training, that they need so that they know their power and they can use it. 

00:12:46 Michele Goodwin:

So, for my listeners, I’m with Becky Pringle who leads the National Education Association, a union that has truly held together teachers in times that are challenging such as now and also in times that have been less challenging. In terms of where we are financially, there have been the tariffs, and I’m just going to go through some of these issues, and then I want to turn to immigration, which you’ve just flashed on. So, what we’re seeing from what’s been reported is that school supply shopping will be 7.3 percent more expensive this year compared to last year according to analysis. And that possibly we might see costs increases as high as 40, almost 43 percent for items such as index cards, 17 percent for notebooks, binders almost 13 percent, folders another 13 percent. 

We have seen the skyrocketing of grocery prices. This school year families can already expect to pay 163 dollars more to pack their child’s lunchbox compared to school last year, according to research that my producers have put together, increasing prices for technology, clothes in schools, clothes and shoes, excuse me, increasing prices for transportation. One of my producers pulled together this information, this quote, students who take the bus to school may be impacted by Trump’s freeze or delay of federal Clean School Bus program grants, which were set to cover new electric school buses for 530 school districts across the country. And then there are the cancellations of federal funds for schools, which means the cancellation of enrichment activities, which are so critically important. 

And then another quote here, the cancellation of many federal grants and weeks-long impoundment of federal formula funds to schools have left many school districts in budgetary chaos leading to cancellation or delay of funding for key staffing positions and programs related to academic support, enrichment, and more. And that’s just the financial piece, just to tie a bow on what we started with. But then you began talking about teachers putting a hug of an embrace around their students from ICE raids. Is this something that, have you ever in your decades of experience as an educator, and then as a leader in education, is this anything that you would had ever seen before, ICE raids? 

00:15:42 Becky Pringle:

No, because we always had a ring of protection around our schools. It’s not that deportation didn’t happen, but that was, that was a safety zone. It’s always been a safety zone. You don’t put kids in peril. You don’t rip kids from their parent’s arms. You don’t come to schools. And you know so this is one of the things I want to emphasize, because a lot of people say, well, that’s not me, and that’s not my family, and I don’t, you know that’s not something I need to worry about. Everyone needs to worry about it because if your child is sitting next to that child who just got, whose parents just got taken away from them your child’s education is going to be impacted. 

That’s their friend, that’s their playmate, that’s the person they’re learning next too. And necessarily as the educator is trying to address that emotional and physical everything about that, the impact on that child it’s going to impact that entire classroom. So, I want to be really clear everyone is impacted by this cruel policy of this administration. You know as I was listening to you read the list I was just, which went on and on and on, I was going to say that’s a lot. 

00:17:08 Michele Goodwin:

It did go on and on. It is a lot and it’s only skimming the top. I didn’t even mention anything about SNAP.

00:17:14 Becky Pringle:

Right, that’s what I’m going to say that was a lot what you said. And I could, I could see how you were, you were keeping your list to the things that you know most people, your audience would directly tie to education, and that was a lot and you didn’t finish it.

00:17:34 Michele Goodwin:

No.

00:17:34 Becky Pringle:

And what I need to make sure folks understand…

00:17:40 Michele Goodwin:

Please. 

00:17:40 Becky Pringle:

Is there are so many other things that they don’t necessarily tie to education that is tied to education. You didn’t touch on Medicaid. 

00:17:48 Michele Goodwin:

No, I didn’t.

00:17:49 Becky Pringle:

Again, going towards 50 percent of our kids get their healthcare from Medicaid. So, if their Medicaid benefits are cut then we, we’re talking about kids coming to school who aren’t healthy. How do we think they’re going to learn, if they’re not healthy? So, there’s so many other things. You did mention transportation, but you mentioned it in relation to school, but everything that impacts our kids now that impacts their families. How about our families trying to get to work? How about that? And if they can’t do that, do you think that’s not going to impact their kids? Of course, it is. And do you think that’s not going to impact whether they come to school ready to learn every day? Of course, it is. I don’t recall you putting in the list housing. At least I didn’t hear it. 

00:18:38 Michele Goodwin:

No, no, you didn’t that’s right.

00:18:40 Becky Pringle:

So, if you, if you think and I know we’ve been reporting on this since COVID, the increase in homelessness of our students and that has not abated. So, that necessarily means that now we have kids who are homeless who are living in shelters, or short-term hotels, or on the streets, or in their cars. All of that impacts whether they come to school ready to learn every day. And so that’s why I said, you know, that’s a lot. And as you asked me that question before about how our educators are dealing with it, I led with coming from a place of so much awe and pride, but there’s just no question that the impact on our teachers and paraprofessionals, particularly those who are working with our students with disabilities, is huge. 

And they can’t bear that burden forever and they can’t bear it alone. And so as we think about those cuts that you just kind of ran through, those are showing up on the shores of our schools in this form. It’s meaning larger class sizes. It’s meaning fewer counselors. It’s meaning fewer or no mental health professionals. Now, what I just described that’s happening in our communities, of course, we need more of those things, of course, for the entire family, but we have less. And our teachers are there to try to do what they can, but there the impact on them is indescribable. They love their jobs and they know they can’t do them to their fullest, when they’re trying to meet all of these needs that are just growing more, growing more and more students are being impacted by all of it. 

00:20:38 Michele Goodwin:

So, you’ve been fighting back and the NEA has been fighting back. So, there was the filing of the lawsuit, and we talked a little bit about this, to defend public schools from the Trump cuts. A federal court granted a preliminary injunction against the Department of Education’s unlawful directive halting the enforcement of the Department of Education’s Dear Colleague letter. Can you tell us a bit about the strategies, what you’ve been trying to do in the onslaught? Because as you mentioned, and I think you’re so right, there is something every 15 minutes. And granted some of those things can be joyful, but it’s also those kinds of things that are like a whiplash, like the sort of constancy of being hit over and over again, but from different directions, such that’s it’s hard to even plan for because it’s coming so quickly, so fast, and from multiple directions. 

00:21:39 Becky Pringle:

Right. So, litigation, as you just mentioned, is part of our strategy and you know we, of course, have filed suits and just hundreds, you know that, hundreds of suits have been filed and we won the vast majority of them, but what then happens? Appeals or just outright not even paying attention, doing whatever they want to do. And so litigation can only be one strategy, but it’s an important one as the Dear Colleague letter was, that was important to stop that within those 10 days, so people weren’t doing what I described. And so that’s important to slow even if we don’t stop it permanently, but we already know after these eight months or so that it’s got to be more that. 

This administration has been very clear by its action, its rhetoric and actions. Any ruling that they don’t like or goes against what their ideology, or what they’re ultimately trying to do, and I need to make this clear, we understand what they ultimately are trying to do and that is to destroy public education. Why? Why? Because public education is the foundation of this or any democracy. If you don’t have a society that’s informed, they’re not going to ask the questions that need to be asked. If you don’t have a society that can think critically then they’re not going to be able to see those very clear signs of us moving into an authoritarian regime, as we see this government taking over cities across this country and preparing to do more. As they are focusing on destroying the very institution that ensures that every student, every student has access to a free quality public education. 

So, we’re very clear about what the ultimate goal is and so litigation is important to slow it down. But here’s the thing, and as I talk to you, Michele, about the burden, you mentioned that word before the weight, the weight of that burden I want to, I want to be clear about how our educators are seeing the weight of that. They know, you know, educators they study history, they know history, and one of the things we know, my dad was a history teacher and so he made sure that his three girls were at his, he was telling us things, I was a science teacher, I didn’t want to hear about history, but my dad was insistent and when I was acting like I didn’t want to listen to him he would say Rebecca. 

That’s what he called me when he was really mad or very serious and I miss him to this day, I wish he were here with my now to have conversations about what’s happening., but he was very clear. He said when you watch, watch throughout history in any country you pick, watch the trajectory of any society or government or reign, you know, it starts, it starts to decline. As soon as that ruler in power takes away its society’s right to learn, and that’s what’s happening right now. That’s what’s happening right now controlling curriculum, trying to scrub it of diversity, equity, and inclusion, banning books, attacking teachers.

00:25:22 Michele Goodwin:

Well, and let’s talk about that because on that point because there has been the banning of books, the burning of books, the censorship. There has been the targeting of school boards. You know sex education was a thing that once was thought of as being so helpful, and it is helpful for our young people, know about your bodies. It’s biology so you can learn about a toad’s body and a frog’s body, but you can’t learn about your own body, right. These days there has been the narrative of the groomers where there have been school board members that have been alleged to be groomers or teachers who teach sex education as groomers, which, of course, is inflammatory. 

It creates stereotypes and stigmas. Nobody wants to be perceived as a groomer, but this is all because you’re following an education, a curriculum guide that’s as old as, you know, dating back to the 1950s and ‘60s, which these days, now, the sense that it can’t be taught. We had very recently the Supreme Court weighing on the Mahmoud v. Taylor case and I want to quote, this is an excerpt from your response to that case. And this is the case that involved the school board intervening and this is part of what you say, that the school board, that the Supreme Court intervenes in this case to allow parents to opt their kids out of what would otherwise be curriculum that all kids would receive. 

And you said educators know all students, no matter who they are or what gender they identify with, deserve access to an inclusive public education. By creating new unnecessary legal rules that burden hard-working educators and disrupt their ability to teach, the Court is effectively inserting itself into the day-to-day education decisions about what students can learn and what educators can teach. 

00:27:35 Becky Pringle:

And here’s the thing, you know, when you read the details of the Mahmoud v. Taylor case, you know that the parents who brought that suit were specifically talking about LGBTQ+ issues. But the ruling of the case, that’s bad enough, but the ruling of the case extended beyond that. And so the result, of course, at the end of the day is that teachers are not respected to make teaching and learning decisions for their students. And as the Montgomery County School District and the Education Association, the union there in the school as they’re preparing to address and deal with the ruling of the court, one of the things that you saw, and that people don’t necessarily know is the process. 

The arduous process that educators, parents, the community, throughout that school district and county and throughout the State of Maryland, and I’m saying, I’m using them as an example because that’s where the case came from, but I could use that example in other parts of the country, that think deeply about the curriculum and go through a process and develop that curriculum. And that is, it’s developed in that way because we understand the power and necessity of ensuring that our curriculum is diverse, ensuring that the issue of equity, which is one of the reasons why if you’ve heard me speak lately I just, I continue to say, say the words. Don’t say DEI say the words so we’re all understanding what it actually means. 

00:29:33 Michele Goodwin:

That’s right. That’s right.

00:29:35 Becky Pringle:

Because when you say it out loud these are the core values that this country was founded on. We’ve never lived quite up to it, but we’re always, that’s our aspirational north star to continuously change and grow and get better. But now, of course, it’s been reduced to three letters that are a slur and so I say to folks you have to say the words so people understand that equity is just making sure that every student has what they need when they need it. Inclusion is what we ensure that our students, all of them. 

00:30:13 Michele Goodwin:

It’s what the Pilgrims wanted, right?

00:30:15 Becky Pringle:

Right, yes.

00:30:15 Michele Goodwin:

It’s interesting these very things.

00:30:16 Becky Pringle:

Exactly. That’s exactly right, you know, whether they have a disability or not they’ve got to be included in the learning. 

00:30:22 Michele Goodwin:

That’s right.

00:30:24 Becky Pringle:

And so the far-reaching impact of this case can’t be understated. And I’ll continue to go back to one of the first questions you asked about the impact and how our educators are feeling. You know when I travel around the country and I get, and I ask them you know because we, we did a, we did a, the NEA did a survey of our educators because we are very concerned about the downward trend of the students in college who are going into teaching. And so, and then we were, as we started talking with our educators our, you know, we realized we had a five-alarm fire because it wasn’t only the downward trend of college students going into teaching, but it was the upward trend of teachers leaving the profession at every stage. 

The beginning zero through five, which generally is challenging, you know, you get in and you’re like, oh, my goodness. So, we lose them a lot there, the middle, and then even those who are ready to retire leaving some of their pension on the table because they just could not do their jobs without the respect. That’s the word they use, Michele, respect. And when I ask them what does that mean for you? They start with we’re not treated as the professionals we are, that we studied, that we put in time and experience. That people who think that they went to school, they can tell any, they can tell us what we need to do with our kids. Of course, respect looks like the fact that they’ve never gotten professional pay, we still have a pay equity gap, and the fact that they don’t get the resources so they can have an environment where all of their kids have what they need to learn. And they have what they need to teach and drive and feed our kids. 

And so when you think about the impact of all of this together, absolutely what this administration is doing right now is adding to an educator shortage in every job category, every job category, that is at a very dangerous level. Because we know that, number one, our students need highly qualified educators, right? And so as we think about the work we have to do ahead we’ve got to, we’ve got to combat that. 

00:32:48 Michele Goodwin:

Well, you know this brings me, I could spend so much more time with you and I think that we need a part two and a part three of this because I wonder then about how we climb out of this. I wonder about how do we, not only do a level set, but actually give our children and families what it is that they deserve? And then how do we counter what has been a movement around for some time, but definitely gaining momentum, which is to move money out of the public fisc and put it over in private education, which also is a threat and a harm to public education, right? 

Because if those resources are gone and that’s not necessarily what people are signing up for, right, so when you think about this systems as being tax-based systems, there are many of us who are not thinking about, well, we’re writing checks to private institutions, but thinking about we’re upholding the public. The public schools, our public roads, our public commitments, et cetera, so much of that to address. But we’ve come to the end of our show, which came really too quickly, but in this we always ask about a silver lining. 

What is it that you see, Becky, as a silver lining of these times? I mean, we certainly have talked through what many of the challenges are, and they are clear and they are real. But you’re President of the National Education Association, which is the nation’s largest labor union, and you’ve been teaching in these spaces and leading for quite some time. What gives you hope in an era such as this? 

00:34:38 Becky Pringle:

Oh, wow, hope. A belief in the plausibility of the possible. You’ve got to believe it’s possible otherwise you won’t get out of bed, otherwise you won’t join with others, otherwise you won’t tell your story or learn how to tell your story in an impactful way. What gives me hope is that people aren’t giving up. You know our educators sit at this very interesting crossroads of people who have an outsized responsibility. We all have responsibility, but throughout history, as you read it and you study it, you know that educators have always been at the forefront of fighting a march toward unfettered power. 

Unionists have always been at the front, forefront of fighting against an authoritarian rule, or if one is in, if an oligarch is in place fighting to claw back democracy. So, now here you have an education union and that cross set, that cross-section, that intersection there it does mean that we have an outsized level of responsibility. And what gives me hope is that our members, who are in every single congressional district in this country understand, they understand the assignment. They understand the assignment and so when I said to them I need you to focus on seven verbs every day, seven verbs that’s what I need you to focus on. And you know Michele seven has kind of, you know, certainly an innate American culture, but spiritually it has a significance to it, right? Seven verbs, those are action words. 

This is what I said to them I need you to educate, communicate, organize, mobilize, legislate, litigate, elect. Every day you get up, I need you to think about I’m going to do this action today. This is the verb I’m going to focus on. Every day, you need to join with someone else and get them to join you in making sure that you are building a community who are ready to take action. One verb every day, because you understand that our students, our children, our babies, are depending on us to be worthy of them. 

00:37:38 Michele Goodwin:

It is an honor,  a pleasure, a privilege really to have spent this time with you. I look forward to our next time. Thank you so much for being with me today. Thank you, Becky. 

00:37:51 Becky Pringle:

Thank you, Michele. 

00:37:54 Michele Goodwin:

This has been your host, Michele Goodwin reporting, rebelling, and telling it just like it is. On the Issues with Michele Goodwin and 15 Minutes of Feminism are Ms. Magazine and Ms. Studio’s joint productions. I’m Michele Goodwin and the executive producer of Ms. Studios. Our producers for this episode are Roxy Szal, Oliver Haug, Allison Whelan, and our Ms. Studios intern Emersen Panigrahi. The creative vision behind our work includes art and design by Brandi Phipps, editing by Natalie Hadland and Emersen Panigrahi, and music by Chris J. Lee.